Communication is the greatest luxury. About the luxury of human communication. The need to be heard

MEETING WITH MARK ANTONY: STUNNING LUXURY At the beginning of 41 AD, the Roman emissary actually arrived in Alexandria. He was a man with a well-spoken tongue and extremely peculiar notions of fidelity. "While the civil war lasted, Quintus Dellius managed three times

“The luxury of human communication” Over time, I learned to speak a little, but I could only do it slowly and very hoarsely, sometimes I mixed up the words. And they no longer “pityed” me, but they simply took me for a sleepy alcoholic. They reacted according to all the rules and offered first

Tatyana Tkachuk: The words of Antoine de Saint Exepuri that the greatest luxury in life is the luxury of human communication are quoted so often that they almost do not think about the deep meaning of the phrase. Why, in fact, is luxury, if all that is needed for communication is that the interlocutor and mutual desire? Meanwhile, we meet with loved ones to "sit and talk" less and less over the years, and live communication for many of us really becomes a luxury that you do not often allow yourself.

My guests today are Komsomolskaya Pravda columnist, writer, poet Olga Kuchkina; photo artist, publicist Yuri Rost and laureate of the literary award "Debut", prose writer and poet Sergei Shargunov.

“A person is born for dialogue,” you told me, Olga, suggesting the topic of this program, and for some time, through the prism of these words of yours, I watched how my communication with a wide variety of people is developing: colleagues, friends, relatives. And a seditious thought crept into my head that either not everyone knows what he was born for, or theoretically knows, but does not need a dialogue. It seems to me that people around more and more often resemble snails hiding in their shell house, it is becoming more and more difficult to lure them out of there. Do you know such a feeling, and what is the reason, in your opinion, why it is more and more difficult to establish a full-fledged, full-fledged contact, more and more of some kind of spiritual strength is required for this? In this case, I'm not talking about the traditional lack of time, but about the essence of communication, about its quality.

Olga Kuchkina: Well, that's why it's called "luxury", because it's generally a jewel. Maybe this is given by nature, and people do not necessarily theoretically come to this, but your apparatus must be set up for this, it must be ready for this. And some people know how to communicate, others don't know how to communicate. You know, I teach at the Institute of Journalism and Literary Creativity, and I had a special master class called "The Art of Dialogue". And I've been talking to my students about all these issues that you just mentioned. You see, even a monologue of a person, even his mono-existence is still a dialogue with the outside world. But asking questions that interest you, talking, spending money on it - it exists like breathing. But you can also think about it and come to some serious discoveries for yourself even.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Thank you, Olga. And we'll take the first call. Petersburg, Alexander is on the line. Hello.

Listener: Good afternoon. Communication with smart people develops a person, with stupid people - on the contrary. The lack of communication can be supplemented by books, radio, television, and so on. But who sits, for example, in solitary confinement, who has four walls - how can they, so that their brains do not dry out, be with whom to communicate? Thank you.

Tatyana Tkachuk:

Sergei Shargunov, please.

Sergey Shargunov: You know, I have experience of communicating with people who have been in solitary confinement in their lives. As far as I know, it is writing and reading that helps a lot in this situation. Moreover, such a situation of concentration, it directly pushes to some kind of creative search. In principle, there is a more, perhaps, a livelier and more meaningful dialogue with the world around you in this very situation - alone. And in general, here we come to the question itself: what is this conversation with another person - is it some kind of familiarity, is it an attempt to draw in front of each other, or is it still openness and interest in another person? It seems to me that every person should be alone. It is such a lofty feat - to be alone and through this loneliness to move on to understanding the other.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Thanks, Sergey. I think that we will definitely talk about openness and closeness in communication today. And I have a question for Yuri Rost. Yuri, any of your professions or hobbies - you often say in interviews that you have these very close in your life - profession and hobby:

Yuri Rost: ...Hobby - I don't use that word at all.

Tatyana Tkachuk: But you are often asked this question. And journalism, and photography, and the television program "Stable of Growth" - all these activities are associated with communication with a large number of people. Therefore, this is partly forced communication. With so much forced communication, do you still have some internal resource to fully and fully communicate with people close to you who are not related to your work in any way?

Yuri Rost: I have no forced communication at all. If I don't want to communicate with a person, I don't communicate with him. Everything I have done is the result of my needs. I've never talked to people I'm not interested in talking to, I haven't made programs or written about them.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Even when you were a young journalist?

Yuri Rost: When I was a young journalist, I performed a certain function, and I had to write information or reports, but I still defended my line and, Olya won’t let me lie, I tried to communicate with those people only to whom I could tell something or they could tell me something. Actually, all my travels and business trips were travels for communication. I am friends with almost all the people I wrote about, and these relationships last for years, decades. And the whole circle of friends that I have are newfound friends, that is, no one is imposed on me. In general, I believe that, unlike love, which can be unrequited, friendship and communication cannot be unrequited, because it requires efforts from both sides. Certainly it is work. Over the years, there is simply less strength and more accumulation, that is, a stricter selection. But I can boast that in recent years I have found a significant number of wonderful people with whom I constantly communicate.

Tatyana Tkachuk: I suspect that you fundamentally disagree with Sergey's position that a person should be alone.

Yuri Rost: No, these are different things. Why lonely? Once with such a wonderful person, Vasily Rodzianko, we talked about loneliness and solitude. We defined it this way: loneliness is what circumstances force you to, and solitude is what you can choose, that is, a thing that is not free and free. A person who is put in jail, he loses the freedom of communication. And, perhaps, even the most wonderful prisons that exist in the West, where there are televisions, and books, and football, anything - they deprive a person of the most important thing - the freedom to choose communication. Therefore, he wants to be lonely - let him be. If that's what you want, let him think he should. Now, if Seryozha believes that he should be alone, then he will be alone. I don't think I should. A person needs solitude.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Thanks, Yuri. Olga, please.

Olga Kuchkina: I think that a man is a centaur, he combines loneliness and the need for communication. He is lonely not because he should be lonely, but he is lonely from the very beginning. This is natural, this is congenial to him: he is born into the world by himself and leaves alone, by himself. Here no one can share some things, although it is communication and the very value of communication that we still hear each other and understand that we are with someone of the same blood.

Tatyana Tkachuk: If we hear and if we understand.

Olga Kuchkina: If we hear:

Tatyana Tkachuk: Thank you, Olga. Moscow, Ilya Aronovich is on the line. Hello.

Listener: Hello. I am listening to this program with interest, especially considering that I am quite decently old. And at one time I remember Yuri Rost in Literaturka, when he was a comrade, not a master.

Yuri Rost: Yes, then you are not a young man.

Listener: And I remember Olga Kuchkina when she was in the real and not the fake Komsomolskaya Pravda. I wanted to say that, since the 90s, we have been diligently separated from each other. Please note that we began to write much fewer letters, mailboxes decreased by two or three times. Some time ago, my wife and I went to Sverdlovsk, where she comes from, where she has friends from school and the institute, and it was very difficult to go there. We thought: we will come from prosperous Moscow, and it will be difficult for us with those people who have not received a salary for months, the salaries are meager and so on, it will be very difficult to talk to them. But we were divided according to nationality and age, Muscovites - not Muscovites, and so on. Now we are still divided - with benefits and without benefits: the benefits that we will receive in Moscow will not be received by residents of the Moscow region, two kilometers from the area where I live. That is, from my point of view, this is not only the essence, as this or that person expresses it, but it is also the systemic imposition of a new lifestyle on us.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Thanks Ilya Aronovich. Since you mentioned Yury Rost and Olga Kuchkina at the beginning of your call, I will pass the microphone to both of them. Yuri, please.

Yuri Rost: What is the right person to say. Naturally, the state was created in order to separate people. Because any communication, normal, human, creates a threat to the state. People need to be in control.

Tatyana Tkachuk: That is, it was created in order to divide, and we were created in order to overcome these barriers.

Yuri Rost: Well, yes. The state, as someone said in essence, is the Housing Office. It imagined that it could carry out some other functions, but in fact it should serve, not interfere with people. And it bothers them a lot. Therefore, I understand the misfortune of people: we have gained some kind of relative freedom, we can calmly talk, but we cannot move, because it has become expensive for people to move around, the country is huge. And phone calls are impossible.

Tatyana Tkachuk: And also not cheap, by the way.

Yuri Rost: Yes, it's not cheap either. So I think the only way to overcome it is to communicate.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Thanks, Yuri. Olga, please.

Olga Kuchkina: We do our job, and the government does its job. And this work is completely different, it definitely is. I like the Chinese proverb that Yegor Gaidar repeats quite often: God forbid you live in an era of change. We have been living in this era for 20 years. And now you remembered the "Stable:" by Yura Rost, and this is exactly the work to overcome disunity.

I myself had such a program "Time H" (by the way, where Yura and I once talked very well), and this was also work to overcome disunity. I talked to people. And, by the way, the picture is exactly the same, that is, these are the people whom I love, and who were in my life and remain in my life, this is not some kind of imposed audience, but those with whom you live. And we were just talking about what we should do, how we should be. And the people who talked to me, each as it were: There were simple conversations, they were not theoretical, but about themselves, about this time, about who survives as a human being. And I think it gives other people some kind of sign again: you are not alone.

Tatyana Tkachuk: We have St. Petersburg, George on the line. Hello.

Listener: Hello. This problem also interested me 15 years ago. But this, of course, is not a feat, but it is a necessary part of internal development. What is associated with loneliness is a must, otherwise a person develops little, will flutter on the surface, without any depth, taking this sliding on the surface for a reasonable existence. But when communication is completely absent, which has been observed for the last 15-20 years, it resembles a feeling of the cosmic coldness of spaces, the Galaxy, and so on. This is also very scary. So the fact that live communication is disappearing is very sad.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Thank you, George. Sergey, to what our listener from St. Petersburg, a regular listener of my program, was talking about, I want to add a little. When I was preparing for this broadcast, I found on the Internet a huge number of special psychological trainings offering to teach the art of communication. By the way these proposals are written, I realized that they are addressed mainly to young people. This is a rather expensive pleasure, but very much in demand, as it turned out. I called for a couple of such trainings and found out that I can sign up, for example, now, and start training only in March, before everything is busy.

I have a question for you. In your opinion, is such an aggressive strategy of teaching young people to communicate caused by the fact that your generation has forgotten how to communicate, or was it not able to do this from the very beginning?

Sergey Shargunov: First, I would categorically disagree with the fact that our generation has forgotten how to communicate. And secondly, I would say a few words about this training system. Apparently, this is due to the fact that a certain breaking of stereotypes is taking place, Russia is trying to fit into certain civilizational ideas and, accordingly, to find new forms of communication. Therefore, many people, along with studying, say, foreign languages, management, show business, are trying to learn a certain "newspeak", so to speak, new psychological methods of communication. However, in principle, communication, so familiar and familiar, it remains. And recently I was at the Forum of Young Writers. And young people come there from Kaliningrad to Ossetia, we sit, drink, talk, and absolutely such a sincere, pleasant speech. Maybe this is the problem of megacities after all - alienation.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Or maybe Wednesday?

Sergey Shargunov: I don't know about the environment. But in any case, communication today takes on new forms: these are messages that are constantly sent to each other on mobile phones, and, finally, these are all sorts of chats and forums on the Internet, where life is in full swing. And how do you know whether oral speech or still written speech, when you stuff it on this very Internet, when money is "dripping", you are in a hurry and write so freshly, brightly, energetically, you still write - which is preferable? Maybe these new forms of communication are forcing young people to write and pushing for some new creativity. These are the first annals of the new reality.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Sergey, but, as a rule, they write monstrously, without punctuation marks, with grammatical errors, reducing everything to a minimum, because each sms costs money:

Sergey Shargunov: You know, a new round of literature always begins with a certain cultural revolution. In any case, there is an interest in life, there is an interest in another person, there is some kind of passion in this. And what will happen next: I am sure that the meaning will be added, and punctuation marks will be learned, if necessary. The main thing is that today there is a certain longing for authenticity, for integrity, which has been noted recently. And in spite of this clampdown, which is carried out by the notorious state, in spite of the ousting of freedom from various TV channels and newspaper spaces, the conversation is moving, perhaps, to the Internet. And maybe the guys just meet - and the gas burner in the kitchen flares up again, everyone sits in a tight circle and talks. That is, there is communication, of course, and it will develop.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Thanks, Sergey. And let's hear how Muscovites on the streets of the city answered the question of Lyubov Chizhova, our correspondent: "Do you often communicate live with your friends and are you satisfied with the quality and quantity of this communication?"

The issue is not acute, because now the family, children, some other priorities. Of course, when this communication is required, we meet. Basically enough. I have such a job - communication with people, so I have enough communication.

Yes, we communicate. Once a month somewhere. Still, work, home, family - there is not much time. Yes, just talk, find out how they are doing, with us, chat.

Often, regardless of age. This is my social circle - we discuss published books, we talk about politics, of course.

Not very often, but we meet. I just can't live without this connection. I didn’t think about why, but I can’t live without it. I need to date.

Every day. If you want to meet more often, then I do it.

Yes, three times a week for sure. We discuss politics, tell each other about the accumulated problems, share something, we are going to do something together. We develop some kind of common opinion on certain problems.

Every day, I can tell. I myself am engaged in a creative profession, and my friends are also mostly musicians. Endless communication, here you can meet as much as you like - the more often, the better. What else is there to spend time on? Communication is the most important thing. Why live then, exactly?

I meet four times a week. We discuss different topics.

In fact, time, unfortunately, is not as much as we would like. But when the time drops out, we communicate in full. Of course, I would like to meet more often, it's just nice to chat. And then I work all the time, I'm tired.

Not as often as on the phone, but, nevertheless, I communicate. You always want to tell someone something that hurts. And I really want this person to be there and just listen and react to my story about myself in the way I would like.

With school I meet less and less. Guilty, perhaps, our time. The people have changed, everyone thinks: “That’s how it is with my money:” It happens that we were even great friends, but due to the fact that we have a different, say, financial status, someone went ahead, - and we are already starting to talk to each other a little. Some kind of envy appears, something changes in my head, apparently.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Did you notice that the younger the voices sounded, the greater the frequency of meetings with friends, someone even called 3-4 times a week. The more people are adults, mature, if not older, the more regret in their voices, that, yes, there is not enough time, more and more on the phone. But in reality: I don’t know, in your opinion, does age affect only in the sense that it becomes physically harder to move towards each other, or does the desire for such active communication slow down? Olga:

Olga Kuchkina: It seems to me that the quality of life does not depend on age, but depends on some other factors. If you keep your mind fresh and your feelings fresh, then you can generally keep them at 60 and 70 and 80, which many of my friends demonstrate.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Thank you, Olga. Yuri, do you agree?

Yuri Rost: With what?

Tatyana Tkachuk: With the fact that the quality of communication does not depend on age, the amount of live communication.

Yuri Rost: It depends, of course. The person gets tired. And then, communication implies some other discoveries, besides combing beautiful wounds, a lot of things are already accumulating.

Tatyana Tkachuk: And there are less and less free "shelves" inside:

Yuri Rost: Yes. Here is such a great balloonist philosopher Vincent Shermet who said: "You know everything about me - you are not interesting to me." Therefore, you can not allow everyone to know about you.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Thanks, Yuri. And we, as usual, active in St. Petersburg. Vladimir Sergeevich, hello.

Listener: Hello. Animal and personality coexist in man. The animal is a product of evolution: it is so arranged that the strongest male must leave his genes, and this is supported by aggression. If the strongest leaves his genes, then aggression becomes a population trait. Well, that's it, the preamble. A person as a person is a product of his social circle. This is the experience with which a person managed to communicate in his life. Unfortunately, recently people come to visit, they haven't met, let's say, for a long time, and now they look into the "box". And when you talk to a person you've known for many years, you get the impression that you're talking to a TV, you know.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Thank you call. Okay, now let's talk about people who can't communicate. Probably, it’s not worth talking about people who don’t want to communicate, right? A person who comes to visit and looks into the "box", because he is not interested in the people he came to, the people he met on this visit, he is probably not interesting to us in this case, on our air .

Sergey Shargunov: Well, you can turn off the "box", since it is still yours, and somehow try to "resolve" the conversation with the guest. Apparently, the owner turned on the "box".

Tatyana Tkachuk: Probably, Sergey, you are right. But there is another category of people. I have, for example, a good friend of mine, a close one, a fairly educated person, he is smart, and he is very laconic. He writes very briefly, on the phone he is able to withstand a conversation for no more than two minutes, that is, he hates the phone. When meeting, he listens rather than speaks, although when he speaks, it is worth it to communicate with him. But to present a complex problem is a painful task for him. He smiles charmingly, spreads his arms and says: "You know, I can't talk!" I often think about this phenomenon here. On the one hand, a person differs from even the most highly organized animals precisely in the communication skills that are given only to a person. And, Olga, in your opinion, what is the problem of such people - is it really the inability to express themselves verbally, or the unwillingness to do so? What is the root anyway?

Olga Kuchkina: How to talk about a person you have never met? Anything can be - both, and unwillingness, and inability. But here we are brushing aside people who look into the "box", we are not interested in this, but in fact this is a huge problem. Children in such families (or not in such families), also staring into the "box", spend their precious time, maybe getting some information (I don't even think it's valuable, I think it's not valuable), but life time is wasted. This is a problem, because everything is laid from childhood. But people stuffed with TV will not grow up to be interesting, meaningful people with whom someone will want to communicate. This will only accumulate further, and this, in general, is a serious thing.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Thank you, Olga. Sergei, please.

Sergey Shargunov: I think that a person who completely cuts himself off from the world shows a certain lack of will. Still, communicating with people - this applies to everything, including building relationships with someone, coming here and saying words, thinking about something - all these are manifestations of will. Life itself is also will. Therefore, even a creative person, of course, he often very painfully perceives certain environmental stimuli, when someone shoved, someone said the wrong word, but still he must overcome himself and absorb the environment. When a person refuses this, he gets into a dead end, and here he begins to engage in self-discipline. And so that there is no self-criticism, you need to communicate, and even with those people who are not completely sympathetic to you, but can give something, bring something to your experience.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Thanks, Sergey. It just seems to me that self-eating in reasonable doses is not so bad. Yuri:

Yuri Rost: Your comrade, about whom you spoke, he, perhaps, communicates wonderfully, because the ability to talk, express one's thoughts and the ability to communicate are completely different things. A person who knows how to communicate, first of all, knows how to listen and understand what is being said to him. And you can meet with a close friend and remain silent all evening - and chat. I had a completely unique friend (unfortunately, this is also one of the problems - you lose physically the people with whom you communicate with age) - Misha Chavchavadze, such a Georgian artist, unique, one of the best people I know (I did not make a reservation, because that for me he is still alive), - that's how he knew how to communicate. And I remember, I came to him on the Riga seaside, where he worked, painted pictures, and it’s good if we said 20 phrases to each other, but I had a feeling:

Tatyana Tkachuk: A: complete communication completely.

Yuri Rost: Absolutely perfect communication. Well, I think it's not an art, you can't learn it, unfortunately it's a gift. Just as hearing can be developed, you can learn to talk by working. That's what we were talking about, these communication training courses are not communication. You can learn to extract information from a person, but this is also not communication. Communication is a form of love.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Thanks, Yuri. I am very grateful to you, I really wanted one of my guests to say exactly this. Let's take more calls. Petersburg, Konstantin, hello.

Listener: Hello. I wanted to remind you that "thought spoken is a lie." And about communication, it seems to me that the first point here is that a person who feels the need for communication, he feels the need to fill the void within himself. And the deeper this emptiness, the more he wants to communicate. And then, a very important second point is the difference in mentality. Here, you see, Americans go to a psychoanalyst and speak out there. And people who experience some kind of psychological problems, they come to a psychologist with us, and the psychologist talks to them, and they answer questions. Have you seen how Americans talk on the subway? They are somewhere 2-3 tones louder than all those around them, while gesticulating, that is, they have such a manner.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Thank you for calling. I can tell you that the percentage of Russians who turn to psychologists, to my great regret, is still minimal. And I think that it will take several decades for this to become a mass phenomenon, and people would stop being ashamed of it, although many people need it. The second thought that occurred to me in the course of how you said that not only Americans, but all Europeans speak loudly in the subway, this is simply accepted - such a style and manner of behavior.

But in essence of what you were talking about, you said that a person seeks to fill the void within himself with communication. We have a letter on our website from Viktor Korostyshevsky, perhaps he would argue with you. Victor writes: “A normal person should miss silence and loneliness. Intelligence is not formed in a flock, in a company, at a party. Communication “live” is usually empty chatter, and outside the family it depresses and devastates. Kitchen gatherings were an image of our life, when freedom could be paid for independent opinion.

Yuri, I will ask you to comment on this letter about the intellect and the pack, which prevents the formation of this intellect, and since there is such an allusion to "kitchen gatherings."

Yuri Rost: What pack:

Tatyana Tkachuk: Look what a flock.

Yuri Rost: Yes. Of course, in a crowd, a normal person should feel bad. I don't like crowds, associations, or gatherings at all. As for me, if I cannot choose the environment, then it depresses me. But what you think about, what you come to alone or in solitude, sometimes requires some kind of implementation, including verbal. What is said in words, that "a thought spoken is a lie," is a lie, because this thought is also said in words. Therefore, I think that a person should protect himself from the crowd, but at the same time he should choose a circle for himself.

So they taught that there are no bad peoples, but one day the thought came to me that there are no good peoples either. I got so scared and decided to check it out. I remember that on the anniversary of Sakharov's death, I met Sergei Sergeevich Averintsev, who I thought knew for sure. Indeed, he knows a lot, a respected person. That's what I asked him. “Of course, it doesn’t happen,” he told me, reassuringly, “but people are good.” Therefore, it is necessary to elect good people and communicate.

Tatyana Tkachuk: And then do not be afraid for your intellect.

Yuri Rost: Certainly.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Moscow, Marina on the line with us. Hello.

Listener: Hello. Here is your theme - communication. Communication is not just chatter, chatter, conversation, but it is the ability to convey a word, a thought, to enrich another. Therefore, if you draw up a hierarchy of communication in your studio, then I would say this: this is Yuri Rost, then Sergey, then Olga. And none of your listeners understands what communication is, no one conveyed this thought, no one conveyed this word. Communication is enrichment, and if you are ready to give yourself, then you communicate. And it doesn't matter what you take. And you do not manipulate anyone, you only give. If from the point of view of some kind of energy, then you give away this energy. But it does not happen that you have lost something, it will return to you a hundredfold. And communication does not depend on technical means. That is, by sms or communication through a computer - this can also be communication.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Thank you Marina for calling. I'm a little offended that you named Olga in third place among people who understand this topic. It just seems to me that this is absolutely not the case.

Olga Kuchkina: I am not offended at all, because communication is precisely not only talking, but also listening - and you said this, Yura, and one of our listeners. In general, I think that the smart words that we say to each other are wonderful, and I, for example, listen to my colleagues with pleasure. But besides this, there is also what Yura called love, and I called in general the mystery and mystery of life itself. Because when we meet, something happens between us beyond words and beyond words.

There is, after all, you all probably know that you meet a person - and suddenly a sudden sympathy flares up, and you can continue to somehow live together with this person. And with another person you are alienated, he is unpleasant to you, and you do not find a common language with him. It's a mystery. Maybe some biologists, psychologists, chemists will say that some chemical processes underlie this, but we will not listen to them, because we still want poetry, right? And poetry is just in this - that this riddle, but you feel it. And this exchange of some kind of energy, it also enriches you extraordinarily.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Olga, tell me, when you build your relationships with loved ones, do you try to keep some edge of your own openness in this communication and at the same time your own security? Do you think about this topic at all, or do you communicate as if in a whirlpool with your head: if the person is yours, you accepted him - do you open up completely, and then these brakes no longer work?

Olga Kuchkina: You know, everything is different. I have a friend Yuri Rost, to whom I always come when it's hard for me. He puts a bottle of vodka on the table or doesn't put it down, maybe two or three times in his life, but it's with me forever. I have such a friend Leonid Zorin, a man of the highest intellect, with whom I simply enjoy communication, I "drink" his intellect. I have a granddaughter Dasha, to whom I am extremely grateful for her attitude towards me. She is a very complex person, very smart, deep, like all young people, madly bristling at something, so I have to be extremely careful with her, I have to hear her more than anyone else. But for that I get more than from anyone when she opens up, when she considers it necessary to be sincere with me. I can only appreciate it, respect it and try not to spoil it.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Thank you, Olga. Moscow, Georgy Nikolaevich, hello.

Listener: Hello. Regarding communication: I am 76 years old, and until 1991 we talked according to Paustovsky: table setting, the main thing is to “treat” an interesting person, but there were no special dishes (but I didn’t really want to). I have been to England five times and there are big changes regarding communication there, but a little terrifying, after the "Beatle" manifesto "Imagin", when "the sky began to be cleared of heaven" (this is the content of the song). And then this purge has come to us since 1991. The so-called world after the end of history. If we remember the year 1990 with you - and we curse the "box" in vain, it can be useful - from the "box" Alexander Men, Dmitry Likhachev, Lev Gumilyov spoke to us. It was nice to chat.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Thank you for calling. We have one letter in the mail, its author is Eleonora Dorn, she lives in Brussels. And it seemed to me that her letter is a rather typical émigré look at today's Russians, their way of communicating. She writes that she periodically comes to Moscow, and it is increasingly difficult for her to find full-fledged communication here. She goes after him, she rushes to him - and she does not find him. She writes that people are closed in their material problems, there is no openness, they think in patterns and look for the guilty outside. On the one hand, it seems to me that this is a problem of emigrants who exist in such a stopped time and think that the former connections are also in a frozen state: here she is back after 15 years - and now she will begin to communicate the way it was 15 years back. But the accusation sounds, and there are several such letters.

Sergey, I will turn to you, as a person of the younger generation. Do you agree that full-fledged communication in your environment: I'm not saying it's impossible to find (of course it's possible), but try to go beyond a little bit of your literary circle, your colleagues and look a little wider. What are people talking about at the table? What Yuri and Olga talked about with their friends at one time, it seems to me, is clear to more or less everyone - and listeners:

Sergey Shargunov: Well, they probably talked about different things, as people always talk about everything. Themes are eternal. I try to communicate a little with such an overly refined literary layer; Yes, it is not now, of course, literature has narrowed its influence. I am interested in ordinary young people, but, of course, not brutal, not bristling in the bad sense of the word, but those who can express some idea, discuss something. They began to talk more and more about politics, paradoxical as it may seem. You know, different lively youth, not necessarily creative, they sit down, pour and: Since television is so boring now, because there are few events, all this politics is transferred to conversations. They talk about where to move the country, what is happening today with culture. Many, of course, complain, but actually communicate. And, you know, I would not discard such a concept as solidarity, it still has life under it. And, it seems to me, now communication is being revived. Solidarity, some common understanding of the situation.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Do you mean the political situation?

Sergey Shargunov: Well, in general - political, social, cultural, historical. History has not died, despite what Fukuyama wrote. And maybe Russia will demonstrate it. Along with the fact that we now have very gloomy tendencies, all sorts of twists and turns, along with this, there is a longing for the authentic, for the real, for the natural. And, you know, somehow they began to read more books, and when people meet, they discuss some new books they have read. And therefore, how this solidarity can manifest itself: I wake up, something came to my mind, some strange idea suddenly dawned on me, somehow I understand the environment in a new way - and you need to understand that in parallel the same thing comes to mind , perhaps, in other words, many more. This is called a historical trend, this is called solidarity. And today, more and more often I feel this community. This is probably a civil society. She, of course, does not appear on Channel One or in the Star Factory, or in the columns of Walking Together. This - "Going apart", as I once formulated.

Olga Kuchkina: Very well articulated, good idea.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Thanks, Sergey. Thank you, Olga. Yuri, can a new person appear in your circle of friends today? Or is it such a constant that exists for decades?

Yuri Rost: Yes, he appeared - here Seryozha says, he appeared. He speaks well, thinks well. Who cares? It's not defined by anything.

Tatyana Tkachuk: But if we return to the topic of what those gathered in the kitchens are talking about, does it change now compared to what it was 10-20 years ago?

Yuri Rost: For me, everything is a kitchen: the street is a kitchen, and work is a kitchen in the high sense, and communication is a kitchen. If this is synonymous with such intimate communication, then, of course, this is all about the kitchen. I think there is no need to systematize anything. Well, let his Linnaeus come after some time and put everything on the shelves: who could communicate, who could not communicate, with whom it was good to communicate, with whom it was bad. You know, it happens (Seryozha is closer), some pretty young lady, for example, - and a person will communicate for a sweet soul, although she cannot connect two words, and will rejoice in this communication, and maybe teach her more.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Yuri, in one of your interviews, to the question (you were asked such a question, not weak) - which of your contemporaries do you experience the most influence? - answered in one word: "Friends".

Yuri Rost: Well, yes.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Is there really no historical figure?

Yuri Rost: They are such bastards, these historical figures.

Olga Kuchkina: They all become historical figures - his friends.

Yuri Rost: Look who's left - some scoundrels. Who killed more, he remained in history. Do you remember Polpot? And who opposed him - no. And so everything, a rare person:

Tatyana Tkachuk: That is, you answered quite sincerely: if someone influences you, then these are your friends.

Yuri Rost: Yes. If I need him to influence, then I might even make friends.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Thanks, Yuri. Let's take more calls. Sergey from Tomsk is on the line. Hello.

Listener: I would like to say a few words in defense of various forms of communication. The fact is that some forms are historically dying out, such as, for example, small talk at balls. Some arise, such as, for example, communication in Internet chat rooms or sms-culture is colossal. For example, I have friends who like to watch television programs on the phone. They live in different parts of the city and when they see something interesting, they call each other and comment, because they experience more pleasure from watching some interesting program, exchanging impressions.

Tatyana Tkachuk: You know, Sergey, I think that soon all of us will be hung up on the phones, and we will lose such a wonderful opportunity - to comment on what you see on the phone.

Yuri Rost: And they can wear muzzles.

Tatyana Tkachuk: They can: Sergey, you have the opportunity to say something in defense of sms-messages and Internet communication, chats.

Sergey Shargunov: Well, this is a new form, in general, of the old communication:

Olga Kuchkina: I can even tell. I enjoy reading LiveJournal - they are absolutely the brightest people, they express themselves wonderfully, they have a wonderful metaphorical language. They think clearly, sharply, brightly, and this is just a huge hope for all of us.

Tatyana Tkachuk: Thank you, Olga. Thanks, Yuri. Thanks, Sergey. Communication is not enough not quantitatively, but qualitatively, - this is probably the opinion of the majority of the participants in the forum of the Radio Liberty website. Nevertheless, my guests today are the KP columnist, writer, poet Olga Kuchkina; photo artist, publicist Yuri Rost and winner of the literary award "Debut" prose writer and poet Sergei Shargunov, whom I once again thank for participating in the broadcast - I think they gave us some hope that communication was and continues to be a luxury available to everyone .